19 December 2009

[Strategy] Ponderings on countering defensive carry strats

Seens to be a sudden rush into asian style 3 defensive carries play - i.e. carries like razor and medusa buying early defensive items to bulk them up for teamfight survival later on - vanguard, hood, blademail, manta, linkins, etc. Makes me wonder a bit about what else we might be likely to see because of this, so heres my thoughts:

Strength Carries

With the focus going on buying survivability for carries, why not start off with carries who have natural in-built survivability already? Makes sense to me... I reckon we'll see more of these guys in the future, Davion can be a complete nightmare to take down when he's farmed up.


N'aix

Whilst granted he's also a "strength carry", he also works perfectly as a sort of anti-tank hero, performing well against heroes with increased hp. He used to be a very important pick, when strength carries were all the rage a few versions ago... might we see him reclaim a place as one of the top picks? Open wounds no longer having a mini-stun sucks a bit for him though


"Map-hack" heroes

With the trend towards defending carries and allowing them to farm up, extra map vision via hawk/revenants/rocket/eyes surely has to be a big advantage. Granted clockwerks rockets don't really give a huge amount of abusable vision, so maybe I'm just going with wishful thinking on that one (was one of my fav heroes to play a couple of versions ago), but the others are definetly worth looking at.


Armour loss strat

Finally, I think this might be a good way to counter heroes who've bulked up on survivability - take away their armour. This sort of strat has proved to be valuble time and time again this version, and I think it could really be utilised to take on the defensive heroes. Not necessarily advocating a lineup of *all* those heroes, but utilising some of them together in a lineup works wonders.

10 December 2009

[Competitive] Farm 4 Fame 2.2 Final - MYM vs BFB

So incase people haven't heard yet, Kuroky left MYM after SMM, and around about the same time EG.dota disbanded. A mixture of these players have been brought together by Puppey along with some other players known in the scene to make an almost "all-star" like dota squad. Their lineup (called BFB for now) is as follows:
  • Puppey (leader)

  • Kuroky

  • Fear

  • Merlini

  • Demon

  • Pajkatt

  • amartnt


So MYM, lacking a carry player seem to have managed to bring their old player h4nn1 out of retirement (sometimes known as Honey/Joker, at the moment seeminly going as "Jukz"). They also seem to have managed to get old captain Maelk to show some more activity too. MYM lineup looks like this:
  • Mania-

  • Angel

  • Miggel

  • Pusher

  • Jukz/H4nn1

  • Maelk


The BFB team has been given EG's old farm4fame position in the brackets, setting them up for tonights final best of 3 match up against MYM.

Onto the matches (with spoilers):

Game 1
BFB bans: Puck / Maiden / Dark Seer/ Lion
MYM bans: Beastmaster / Visage / Spectre/ Tide

BFB picks: Venge / Kunkka / Medusa / Necrolyte / Lich
MYM picks: Slardar / Razor / Sniper / Warlock / PotM
View Replay

MYM appeared to have the better start here, ganking reasonably nicely and putting pressure on BFB, they rack up a reasonable kill advantage early on. By mid-game however, BFB have massively overfarmed compared to MYM, making Kunkka, Medusa and Necro very hard to deal with, even though MYM have the kills stacked up. As the game progresses, BFB push better and their better farming pays off, eventually they overpower MYM in one final teamfight by the mid tower/rax and gg is called by MYM.

Game 2
Was remade into -ap... watched the -cm stream from the start yesterday, but cant quite remember the bans... Rexxar, dark seer, spectre, razor and venge were in there, but dont have them all, sorry, possibly maiden, visage and slardar were there too, but I cant remember.

MYM picks: Medusa / dazzle / necro / tide / phantom lancer
BFB picks: Lion / shadow fiend / storm spirit / keeper of the light / brood
View Replay

BFB picking up ezalor and lion, both with mana draining spells... presumably to try to counter Medusa's mana shield somewhat? Then MYM picking up lancer, I reckon in order to prevent BFB from running Lancer+Ezalor (that combo is as annoying as anything).
In my opinion this game was as much about the ward battle as anything else. BFB warded massively, and MYM did a much worse job of keeping map vision, resulting in MYMs carries having no safe spaces to farm. Merlini's brood did his job perfectly, pushing away lanes quickly, resulting in much better map control for BFB. There was never really a point in this game where BFB didnt look in control of the match, they were just doing everything right - their farming was much better, their choice of fights more sensible and general co-ordination was just looking nicer. Only MYM player to farm vaguely decently was Mania on Medusa, and he still lagged behind SF and Brood in creeps anyway.

Decisive victory for BFB... back to the drawing board for MYM - they'll have to come up with some better strategies :p

Think in a couple of days time i'll do a bit of analysis on where I think the scene seems to be heading...

01 December 2009

[Competitive] SMM - everyones talking about it...

So last weekend was the much anticipated SMM tournament in Malaysia, which was supposedly going to settle the age-old debate of whether European or Asian dota was superior. In actuality, MYM was the only european team attending, though PokerIdol from US/Canada also attended and their style can be likened to that of europeans (but with more sniper action, lol). So really I don't see that a vast amount of knowledge can be gained about whether europeans or asians are technically more skilled at dota, however we can draw some information from the competition.

Asain dota truely does live up to its name as a farm-fest. My God.. some of the matches were sooooo boring, no more than 10 kills at 20mins sort of stuff, bleh. But if thats the best way for them to win games, then fair play to them, winning is winning.

MYM managed to lose 2 of their group games, against not the highest skilled of asian teams.. but if you look at their heroes, its disgraceful, they've gone completely out of their compfort zone and attempted to pick asian-style lineups. Thats ridiculous, they should have simply stuck to what they're best at playing, not a single Sandking or Storm spirit pick - thats rather depressing. They spent their time trying to out-farm asian teams, and it simply didnt work. In one game where they did pick a much more gank oriented lineup they actually completely destroyed the opponents, PMS, though these arent a top asian team, so its difficult to draw much from this either - maybe MYM would have destroyed them regardless of the lineup. Heres the lineup they used though:

Much more action to be seen there than some tide/ medusa/ necro /warlock / razor/ whatever lineup.

However maybe simply bringing the european ganking to those 3-carry, defend, farm lineups wouldn't have been enough for MYM to win even at the top of their play. PokerIdol did that brilliantly, and still it didn't pay off against the absolute best asian teams.

I'll use this replay as an example of beautiful gank play, against defensive farm play: EHOME vs PokerIdol

EHOME:
PokerIdol:

PokerIdols lineup just screams gank, also it looks just like a lvl1 roshan strat (watch the replay to see what happens there). EHOME's lineup is full of heroes that buy tanky items so that eventually they just stay alive in the clashes and are able to continue farming up. Its absolutely worth watching, and if you dont want to know much about the game, dont read the next passage.

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*SPOILER*
Basically, the early game goes brilliantly for PI, they gank gank gank, and hold onto a solid 10-kill advantage through into mid game. Then EHOMEs heroes start to build up their vanguards, hoods, bracers, strength treads, and they start to become much much harder to kill. Razor and medusa proceed to continue farming, and die much less in the team fights. Eventually, PI manage to lose a couple of teamfights, find themselves raxed, and lose. Was such a shame, defensive play beating offensive play in such a manner. You can see it by the item builds - PI have daggers on 3 of their heroes - offensive much? EHOME have multiple bracers, vanguards, treads and hoods everywhere, boring or what? The game finishes with PI still on more kills, and beastmaster still on something like 10-2 (can't quite remember), but they simply cant compete with the tankiness of ehomes heroes.
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I havent even bothered watching the replays of the finals between FTD and cD, apparently they're not worth watching at all... all farm and no gank, not worth the btoher IMO.

So, after me ranting on about asian dota being a boring way to play, what can I conclude? Perhaps the asian style is actually superior to the european/north american styles of play, as it manages to decisively beat it. You can still be the best at something by winning it, regardless of whether you do it in a fashion that spectators enjoy, and on that basis, asian dota can be considered better than european - their play style at the moment will probably win more games.

*HOWEVER* - dota is a game right? it should be enjoyable, and most definately a ganking style is more interesting to both play and watch than a defensive farming style which quite frankly is straight-up boring. The fact is, european teams are rarely going to play against asian teams, so it simply doesnt matter which continent is "better" at dota, and I for one would much rather play in a style thats fun... so european dota is certainly the "better" type for me to be involved with.

In terms of the top players, would the top asians be able to win with gank lineups against the european top players? we simply don't know. So by playing a different style and winning, does that mean they're better overall dota players? I think not... skill is hard to judge, and its somewhat dependant on what you're doing with it. i.e. is mania a better player than loda? (two european players) you cant actually compare the two because they play different styles, one is predominantly a gank player, the other predominantly ganks.

Europeans play dota their way, Asians play it a different way, each seem reasonably happy doing it in their respective manners, and so should be happy about that. Doesn't matter who's "better" really, because in actuality no low or mid tier teams from either continent are likely to come into contact with each other... its completely unimportant.




Well, after that big long complain about nothing important... fnatic are going to China for the 30 day tournament throughout december. Naturally this is going to bring the same euro vs asia questions straight back up. I just hope fnatic bring some proper european ganking to china, and make the games fun to watch :)