Asain dota truely does live up to its name as a farm-fest. My God.. some of the matches were sooooo boring, no more than 10 kills at 20mins sort of stuff, bleh. But if thats the best way for them to win games, then fair play to them, winning is winning.
MYM managed to lose 2 of their group games, against not the highest skilled of asian teams.. but if you look at their heroes, its disgraceful, they've gone completely out of their compfort zone and attempted to pick asian-style lineups. Thats ridiculous, they should have simply stuck to what they're best at playing, not a single Sandking or Storm spirit pick - thats rather depressing. They spent their time trying to out-farm asian teams, and it simply didnt work. In one game where they did pick a much more gank oriented lineup they actually completely destroyed the opponents, PMS, though these arent a top asian team, so its difficult to draw much from this either - maybe MYM would have destroyed them regardless of the lineup. Heres the lineup they used though:
Much more action to be seen there than some tide/ medusa/ necro /warlock / razor/ whatever lineup.
However maybe simply bringing the european ganking to those 3-carry, defend, farm lineups wouldn't have been enough for MYM to win even at the top of their play. PokerIdol did that brilliantly, and still it didn't pay off against the absolute best asian teams.
I'll use this replay as an example of beautiful gank play, against defensive farm play: EHOME vs PokerIdol
EHOME:
PokerIdol:

PokerIdols lineup just screams gank, also it looks just like a lvl1 roshan strat (watch the replay to see what happens there). EHOME's lineup is full of heroes that buy tanky items so that eventually they just stay alive in the clashes and are able to continue farming up. Its absolutely worth watching, and if you dont want to know much about the game, dont read the next passage.
-------------------------------------------------------
*SPOILER*
Basically, the early game goes brilliantly for PI, they gank gank gank, and hold onto a solid 10-kill advantage through into mid game. Then EHOMEs heroes start to build up their vanguards, hoods, bracers, strength treads, and they start to become much much harder to kill. Razor and medusa proceed to continue farming, and die much less in the team fights. Eventually, PI manage to lose a couple of teamfights, find themselves raxed, and lose. Was such a shame, defensive play beating offensive play in such a manner. You can see it by the item builds - PI have daggers on 3 of their heroes - offensive much? EHOME have multiple bracers, vanguards, treads and hoods everywhere, boring or what? The game finishes with PI still on more kills, and beastmaster still on something like 10-2 (can't quite remember), but they simply cant compete with the tankiness of ehomes heroes.
-------------------------------------------------------
I havent even bothered watching the replays of the finals between FTD and cD, apparently they're not worth watching at all... all farm and no gank, not worth the btoher IMO.
So, after me ranting on about asian dota being a boring way to play, what can I conclude? Perhaps the asian style is actually superior to the european/north american styles of play, as it manages to decisively beat it. You can still be the best at something by winning it, regardless of whether you do it in a fashion that spectators enjoy, and on that basis, asian dota can be considered better than european - their play style at the moment will probably win more games.
*HOWEVER* - dota is a game right? it should be enjoyable, and most definately a ganking style is more interesting to both play and watch than a defensive farming style which quite frankly is straight-up boring. The fact is, european teams are rarely going to play against asian teams, so it simply doesnt matter which continent is "better" at dota, and I for one would much rather play in a style thats fun... so european dota is certainly the "better" type for me to be involved with.
In terms of the top players, would the top asians be able to win with gank lineups against the european top players? we simply don't know. So by playing a different style and winning, does that mean they're better overall dota players? I think not... skill is hard to judge, and its somewhat dependant on what you're doing with it. i.e. is mania a better player than loda? (two european players) you cant actually compare the two because they play different styles, one is predominantly a gank player, the other predominantly ganks.
Europeans play dota their way, Asians play it a different way, each seem reasonably happy doing it in their respective manners, and so should be happy about that. Doesn't matter who's "better" really, because in actuality no low or mid tier teams from either continent are likely to come into contact with each other... its completely unimportant.
Well, after that big long complain about nothing important... fnatic are going to China for the 30 day tournament throughout december. Naturally this is going to bring the same euro vs asia questions straight back up. I just hope fnatic bring some proper european ganking to china, and make the games fun to watch :)
I normally wouldnt bother commenting to a random blog i got linked to, but in this case i beg to differ with some of your reasoning/understandings of how games went. First of all if you know anything about the pro dota scene you know E-home are considered the best gankers in the world only short of the old V.P. team. Im sure you didnt hear of/watch the 4 scrim games of mym versus ehome or you would know that Ehome obliterated mym 3-1 and showed mym how to really gank. Those were the games that dumbfounded kuroky and led to the demoralization and picking catastrophe evident in the group stage matches.
ReplyDeleteOn top of that recently E-home smashed the hell outa fnatic by ganking them back to the ice age. I wont bring up numerous other cases of Ehome's style since your just ignorant/new to the dota scene, and perhaps just didnt know.
Now taking that information into account ill apply it to your tremendous misread of the P.I game. E-home instantly caught on to the roshan plan and a teambattle ensued right away. They got smashed in the battle, and consequently suffered from it in the laning phase. Based on the humongous 0-11 difference in kills they played in a way to slowly make a comeback, namely more passively than they normally do till they can catch up to the lead and finish it off. Ofcourse it was the wisest decision since u cant immediately gank enemy heroes who are out leveling +having better items than you, so you have to play it safer.
As an aside i agree that asia>europe, and i agree that gank style is way more interesting. However if you'd watch the somewhat boring final of cd/ftd you will see how top notch ftd's execution is, regarding when to engage, map control/awareness, and teamfight's. Those traits alone gave them the edge and the right to be considered the new powerhouse in Dota. Logically they could pawn ass with an all out gank style but they discovered that the way to win in 6.64 was by having 3 carries and focusing on a more controlled gameplay. And they were right.
SlickDragon, you suggest that EHOME are considered the best gankers in the world... presumably they're considered that by asians, as here in Europe we simply dont see that much of asian dota to consider particular asian teams the 'best in the world' at whatever strategy. Its difficult to know much about the asian dota scene here, all I see are the replays posted on gosugamers/mymym every now and again... I cant be expected to look at the stuff on replays.net - i cant read chinese.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I knew, the EHOME-MYM scrims were never streamed, and I was under the understanding that the replays were never released either? If the replays are available anywhere, please by all means link me, I'd love to see EHOME playing some gank style lineups if thats what they're supposedly good at.
As for the PI thing, EHOME "caught on" to the Roshan strat... but they clearly didnt catch on to the fact that PI wouldnt do rosh, and would gank them from behind instead - else they would presumably have avoided it.
I wasnt suggesting that PI were infact a better team than EHOME but lost because of the strategy, I was just giving a good example of how the defensive style shown at SMM seemed to make gank strats rather pointless... which I think is a shame, ganking is the more fun way to watch and to play.
Regardless of whatever else you say, SMM cannot be used to say that Asian dota is better than European dota.. until proper amounts of teams from both continents are seen in a tournament, its all just subjective opinions.
@ Tom
ReplyDeleteNothing in the world can show Asia > Euro.
You know why? Because you cunts' egos are too big.
At the end of the day, asians beat euros in SMM. That indicates something doesnt it, or do you have an excuse for that?
"Asians beat euros in SMM"
ReplyDeleteA single European team went to SMM, it failed to get through its group stage, after for whatever reason picking lineups way out of their comfort zone.
You can infer whatever you like about asian vs european dota from that, whatever
I suppose at least "anon" had one thing right.
ReplyDeleteNothing in the world can show Asia > Euro. And it can't be shown the other way either.
Not untill you can play a "champions league" of dota, where the best play the best, as opposed to a "who actually has the money to be able to show up?" of dota.
To add to what Josh, Split said:
ReplyDeleteAs soon as DoTA becomes an Olympic event, we can see which nation, which continent, or which hemisphere takes home the gold.
I can see it now: the youth of the world training vigorously to practice last hits on creeps, doing finger exercises and reciting DoTA literature.